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ARV or Cash flow for REOs

Question:

Tony, what is the highest percentage of ARV that you will offer for an REO? Or, do you strictly look at your cash flow?

-Student

Answer:

I look at my cash flow. Each case is different. I’ve paid probably as high as 70%, but it depends on what I’m going to do with the house. If I know it’s a house that I don’t want to keep as a rental, but I’m not going to have to fix anything, I can just turn around and flip it and make $10,000 after all is said and done, why would I say no to that? People sometimes think “oh I don’t want to waste my time with that.” GET OUT OF HERE! Listen, if I can do $10,000 on a house and do $50,000 a month, I’ll take 3 of those a month. The rest of you guys can keep the rest of them. So, yeah, I’ve done as high as 70%. But again, everything is in line, if you look at the way I calculate numbers on my stuff, I’ll pay a little more if there’s less repair. I’ll pay less if there’s more repair. If there’s no carrying cost, if I have no hard money loan on it, I adjust the numbers so that it makes sense, because that’s what makes the difference between someone who will walk around complaining that he can’t find a deal or someone like myself or Mike Cantu or any of the successful people that you’ve had an opportunity to meet that understand that it’s not about finding a deal. Once in a while, we find deals and they land right in front of us and we trip over them like a rock. But most of the time you’re making deals, ok? It’s creating deals. You’re looking at something and asking yourself, “How can I tweak the numbers or something on the property?” It’s about being creative in the way that you see real estate. If I only had a dime for every time I heard someone who would walk a house with me and go, “my god why would you even touch that? Why would you buy that thing? Are you crazy?!” I was so happy to hear that because I knew this is why I’m making the money I’m making because most people cannot see that and they get stressed out.

-TA

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Referrals from Trustee’s Sales

Question:

Can you elaborate on getting leads from “referrals from guys at Trustee’s Sale” on 119 of the course book? Thanks

-Student

Answer:

Lovely, yes! You got a bunch of guys out there buying at the trust deed sales. The more remote your area is, the better they love to do this. If you’re in some area, they want to know they got a sure thing to sell something. Sometimes they have what’s called “drop bids.” Where they find out that morning that some property that was going to sell for $195,000 has now been dropped bid down to $100,000 or $110,000, whatever it is. They want to be able to get on the phone, be able to call you and say “Hey, Tony, now I got a house on Lancaster West now here’s the address. Go check it out. They just told me I got 15 minutes.” And I’m telling you, I am not exaggerating some of these are like 15 minute deals. But I can go there, knock on the door, see if the property is vacant, see if there’s a person living inside, and find out quickly. I try to find out if it’s the owner or not. And there’s little ways you can use to get your foot in the door. If it’s worth buying or not buying, I’ll tell them on the spot. I have Sabrina doing the comps, immediately, and I say “okay, here’s what I’ll give you. I’ll give you $65,000 max.” So now, he knows what he’s got to add to that so he can get that to the price I’m willing to pay. And trust me; I just had another meeting with two guys in my market that do this. And over the course of time, I don’t work with a lot of different people doing anything. I’m very specific about who I use. But I use people that are very good at what they do and people that I can trust. That’s the whole thing for me is trust. If I can get some money where I can rely on them and I can trust their word, I’m in!

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Does Tony make loans to Students?

Question:

The Norris Group is now offering 9% loans, that have 2yr prepayment penalty, 8 years amortization. Do you make loans to students?

-Student

Answer:

I do not make loans to students. What I do is, on occasion, I will go in on a deal or I will participate, I will facilitate, I will do all those kinds of things. But I don’t make loans to students; I make loans to real estate. And it really has to do with a lot of different elements. To be frank with you, I consider The Norris Group to be the best bet for loans.

If you get into a weird situation in the future where you need to twist and bend things and try to figure out deals that don’t make any sense, Bill Tan is one of the best people for things like that. I’m talking about people that I trust. I don’t suggest names just because they’re out there doing stuff. I don’t accept money from anybody for anything except for what I do. And so when I give you advice on something it’s because it’s solid. The Norris Group, I think is a wonderful company and they’re a no-nonsense company. Bruce is a no-nonsense kind of person. When he makes a decision to make a loan he makes it because it’s a solid loan for YOU AND THEM. So if they tell you to walk on a deal, it’s because they realize you’re going to hurt yourself. So, I recommend them.

I get involved, but first and foremost is the stuff I’m doing. I have people bring me deals where the numbers make sense and yeah I bite down like a pit bull, why not? But, I have to be working closely with people to really understand them and trust them. More times than not, I’ll be honest with you, I’ll show you how to do it so you don’t need me, or you can have someone else involved and pay them. Here’s the reason, I don’t need the money.

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Conflict of interest

Question:

On page 88 [course manual] Raising Capital you state using a RE agents be careful not to create a conflict of interest, can you elaborate?

-Student

Answer:

You have to be careful when you work with agents because you get very close to working with listing agents and the agents that are going to hand you the deals. It could be a conflict of interest for them if they’re getting too close to you, in other words, if they’re going to lend you money because sometimes those agents have a ton of money and they want to participate in the market, but they don’t know how to do these deals, believe me. And I know some of this may sound silly. I borrowed money from some and used it on another agent’s deals. NEVER use it on the same deal they’re selling you. You have to be careful with stuff like that, that’s what I mean by conflict. You get a smoking deal from an agent and the agent calls you and says, “Hey, you know I want to be on this that’s why I’m giving you the deal,” WALK AWAY! Tell them thanks, but I can’t do that. It’s a conflict of interest for that agent but believe you me when the mustard hits the fan, you’re both getting handcuffs and free food and living arrangements for a while. So, you have to think before you do stuff, just do what’s proper.

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Repair Costs for Comps

Question:

 Where do you get the repair costs for the comparables?

-Student

Answer:

We just estimate that from the information we get from the MLS. If you can estimate repair for your own property, you can simply do it by looking and it’s not going to be the exact thing, but what you were looking at was an exercise we put together [in the course manual] pretty much fictitiously. As far as the numbers are concerned, we just created those numbers for the exercise.

But if you ever want to estimate what repair costs are like if you’re looking at comparables and something in your area sold low, you must get the MLS information and you must get to that listing agent and get as much information out of them as you can. But you can usually tell when you go to a house, if you look at pictures in the MLS, you can interview that listing agent and then you can drive by and see what it looks like after. And this is one of the reasons I tell everybody to stay on top of your market as best you can because as you’re working in an area you’re developing information.

We’ve been holding information in our area that goes back all the way to 1993. We’ve been warehousing statistics on spreadsheets. So, we want to know anything about our area and we want to graph it. I mean, come on, it’s not difficult!

We’ve been in markets; we’ve seen them change from one thing to another. This is why it doesn’t matter if you’re starting out. Don’t compare your stuff to mine because that’s nonsense. You may learn ten times faster than I do. Okay, you may be college educated. I’m a high school drop out, but you have to start at some point creating data, putting together information for your area. You’re not going to get past the first step if you don’t take it. So, if you’re out there and you’re looking at houses everyday and you’re following my instructions and taking my direction, you’re out there looking at houses ALL THE TIME until you get to see houses you won’t end up buying. By this time, you know what the condition is so that the guy who does end up buying it, you know what he must do to that house to make it market ready. Then when he’s all done fixing it up, you go back and see what he did, see what he sold it for, and from there you can extract whether any of the repairs he made made sense. You can find out what he paid for central air conditioning, for new windows, carpet, and paint, but that won’t vary too much from what you end up paying for it things like that.

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Agents “slipping” deals before listing

Question:

Is it considered fraud for a RE agent to “slip” us deals before they are listed? Bruce Norris posted an article on his FaceBook page recently, describing two brokers who were arrested for giving their investors preferential deals, before they were listed.

Just to clarify, the Brokers had other offers, but presented only the low offers of their investor, leading to a low sale and a resale for a profit. Do asset managers demand the property receive broad exposure before accepting offers?

-W.A.

Answer:

Here’s the clincher on this and I want you to understand, this is really important. ABSOLUTELY it’s fraud! Put yourself in the seller’s shoes. You’re going to list a property with an agent. You’re done rehabbing it, you bought it. You went through all the work, now you list it with your agent and you trust him to get you the highest and best deal and your agent sells it to his cousin and takes a low offer and then calls you and says, “Hey I didn’t get any other offers.” You know, I’d want his head smashed like a coconut. So, why shouldn’t the government be upset about that? That’s absolutely fraud!

But what makes it fraud is they purposely held offers. They had higher offers and only gave them this low ball offer for this investor. They should go to jail. Now, when I tell you that an agent will give you a tip on a listing that’s not even listed yet, he’s giving you a heads up. That’s called “prelisting favoritism.” But that doesn’t mean, by any stretch of the imagination, that he’s not going to submit all of the offers that he has on his plate. He will however, when he gets the offers, tell the asset manager, “You should consider this offer, even though it’s lower.” Why? “Because I know this guy’s a closer. Let me give you thirty-five other deals he’s done. Well let me explain to you why I think you should do it. The lender he’s using is solid. And I’ve spoken to them already. It’s a hard money lender it’s not a conventional loan. We’re not going to be in escrow for 30-40 days.” You know, that agent can do a lot of things that are considered proper without violating any laws, without doing anything underhanded. Without, by the way, including you in this scheme because, you’re going to be an accessory to that. I’m surprised they didn’t go after the investor on this. I’ll be surprised if they didn’t because, that’s just down right fraud. This is the criteria I use whenever I look at something; whether it’s improper or not. Do I want it done to me? How would I feel about it if I was on the receiving end of the situation? I’ve made a lot of money in my life in this business. I’ve never once stayed working with somebody who would come close to do any stupid thing like that. Uh, hello? You put your offer in and the guy knows it’s not going to close; he’s got the chance to be a hero. You know, asset managers don’t want those deals falling apart any more than anybody else. They don’t mind eating crow if they screw up and took a high offer and never had the chance in hell on closing.

The answer to your question is yes. It is fraud for an REO agent to slip an investor a deal before they’re listed, but not to give you information before it’s listed. An agent can give you information on a listing any time he wants. But he also will tell you it has to be listed. Some lenders, not all of them, but some lenders require the listing to be exposed to the multiple listing for a certain amount of days. Other lenders have more flexibility. Listen, you have lenders out there that’ll tell an agent “hey I’m listing this listing with you; get me somebody who’s going to close.” They’re really interested in closing. So, if the agent says “hey I can’t get you a $100,000 and it’s an all cash transaction.” A lot of times they’ll say “get that guy in here. If you know the guy’s solid, it’s a done deal.”

-TA

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Difference with HUD REOs?

Question:

What do I need to know in dealing with HUD REO’s? Any particular approach, lingo, etc. that I may need in order to be taken seriously?

-W.A    

Answer:

The only thing you need to know when it comes to HUD properties is to follow the instructions of a good agent who deals with HUD REOs or HUD foreclosures all the time. We’ve done a little bit of this, we haven’t gone after it like a mean dog as of yet but we intend to because I think that’s an area that’s really developing. But the secret to that is really having an agent who understands and has experience submitting those offers. What’s probably good to do is to find an agent who was in the last market, in the last downturn and who worked a lot with HUD because that’s all there was and they’re very familiar with what you can accomplish and the one thing about HUD that I can warn you about is that they’re detailed because they don’t necessarily hire the brightest staff in the world so they set these stringent rules for themselves and they don’t really respect how much work you put into having to do their offers. Its not so much what you write up to be taken seriously. To be taken seriously, you just have to follow the guidelines that they give you, and that they give everybody the same thing. You won’t shine here. This is not Fannie Mae or any of that nonsense. Basically, it’s just a vanilla, cookie-cutter method. The only thing that could happen is that your agent’s an idiot and drops the ball and doesn’t get your offer in on time, doesn’t have all the appropriate paperwork, hasn’t crossed all the t’s and dotted the i’s. That’s it! And I just read about somebody who in my area had submitted an offer and were waiting and waiting and waiting. They were told they had the deal and they went on and found out that it was back on the market, listed as available again. And this was basically because their agent had screwed up and dropped the ball on something and the property was relisted again. They were able to capture it back again but you know they would have never known. It could have sold to somebody else and when it sells to somebody else you’re S.O.L, you’re toast – that’s it!

So, it’s not so much about any secret weapon. It’s really important for you guys to learn the process that’s involved in these kinds of offers. HUD, you need to understand ALL the elements that are involved in that for yourself so that you double check your agents and I know that sounds a little wacky, but it really is important.
    
-TA

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What is Wholesaling?

Question:

I still don’t fully understand the term “wholesaling.” Can you give me a few examples? On page 88B it shows a mild fix as a wholesale. I thought just flipping a house, “as is” was wholesaling.

-A.N.

Answer:

A mild fix wholesale, for example, is when you buy a property, instead of doing repairs, you trash out the house and clean it up so that its somewhat presentable. You have the lawns cut and the yards cleaned.

What you’re looking for is just to clean up the property and make it neat. No extensive rehab.

You’re in essence making it appealing for new investors so they don’t get scared off.

You would be surprised at what you can do with a little bit of touch up paint, gardening and clean up. Sometimes you can put that property back into the MLS as a “fixer” that needs TLC and sell it with multiple offers and can sometimes make almost as much profit as a full rehab.

The name of the game is to look at each property, individually, and try to figure out how many different Exit Strategies you can create to dump that property as fast as you can, for as much as you can. A mild fix wholesale is just one type of wholesale deal, it’s just taking wholesaling and slicing it to many different pieces.

-TA

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What if an REO property needs more than your estimate?

Question:

Hi Tony, Please help me reconcile these two statements: 1. You once said that you never cancel escrow on an REO agent. 2. You also said that you run “an offer mill” making 15 offers per day or so.

How can both be true? What if your offer on an REO property is accepted and then you inspect the property and discover that it’s going to require a lot more work and money than you thought? Do you lower the offer? Isn’t that what you called a “terrorist offer?” Or do you cancel altogether? And if so isn’t that the same as cancelling out of an escrow? You just disappointed an REO agent.

Or do you inspect every single REO property before you make an offer so that scenario never occurs. That means you and Sabrina are inspecting at least 15 properties per day.

 

Answer:

Dear David,

Nice of you to write. Let’s take your questions apart piece by piece.

1 – I don’t run “offer mills.” My goal is to send out 15 offers a day. However, we personally only write a minimum of five and those are LOIs on an 8 1/2 X 11, pre-designed template where we basically just enter the property and agent information. However, we only make offers for two reasons:

One, on properties that I’m interested in buying. These are made through the listing, or a buyer’s agent within the listing agent’s office or through a buyer’s agent outside the listing agent’s office.

Two, on properties where I am interested in meeting the listing agent such as a pending listing where I use an LOI (Letter of Intent/Interest) type offer. This is what I call a “calling card offer.” It’s just my way of introducing myself using a point of interest for the listing agent.

2 – I have never canceled a deal once I have a seller accepted offer and have opened escrow.

3 – Presently, in our market, properties that we pro-actively select to submit offers on fall into one of two categories: REOs or Short Sales. The REOs are typically inspected by Sabrina and/or myself and the agent representing us, prior to submitting our offer.

The short sale offers are submitted with one contingency – “Subject to Interior Inspection.” We seldom inspect short sales unless we are concerned about the present condition or the upgrades. This is typical and accepted when dealing with short sales where the final price has not yet been approved by the lender. Keep in mind, short sales for us are the equivalent of gambling, that’s why we call them “Slot Machine Offers.”

-On a short sale where the selling price has already been pre-approved by a lender and we are interested in purchasing at the approved price, we would be inspecting the property prior to opening escrow.

4 – In the past, when I have been out of town, and before the existence of the Flip video camera, I would have to rely on Sabrina or an agent to inspect a severely damaged property, something that has always made me somewhat uncomfortable. There have been times where they have underestimated the repair costs. One that comes to mind, is actually a recent purchase of a property where they missed that a part of the foundation was made of brick. This is a very costly repair.

However, it would be more costly if I cancelled that escrow as the level of damage it might cause my business may be unrepairable. In all honesty, many times it’s not so much the damage it will cause my reputation as a professional buyer, but the fact that having that level of commitment assures me of the loyalty of top brokers, indefinitely.

In any event, this is the way I’ve chosen to do business and I believe it’s largely responsible for the success that I’ve experienced. Keep in mind that I suggest that as new buyers, you keep your contingencies for inspecting, financing and everything else in place to protect yourselves from your own errors or poor judgement. Take your time, inspect properties carefully, really understand what you’re doing and the cost of those repairs as well as the added value that they will bring to the property. A declining market is not a forgiving atmosphere.

The bottom line is this, we don’t make offers on properties without prior visual inspections! Nor would I recommend that anyone entertain that idea, it just isn’t prudent since the condition of the property is such a crucial part of your equation. If the picture that I conveyed of our system of making offers was a disorganized or disorderly conglomeration of disjointed actions – nothing could be further from the truth!

I don’t make frivolous offers. I don’t waste an agent’s time by making uneducated guesses. Every action we take in our office is well thought out and pre-calculated with a specific reason in mind.

Unfortunately, my ability to communicate may not be as good as the systems in my office. Please forgive me for any confusion that I may have caused.

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Making Hard Money Make Sense

Question:

I use a little hard money, but not very savy about it.

To buy and hold seems like you need to leave a lot of skin in the game. 20% on either conventional or hard money. Hard money at 60-65 of todays market value on longer terms . If I buy at a 20% discount … I still need about 20% down

With the average multi unit in the Hood of SD will cash flow 1000k a month with 100 percent financing @ 9 % and 200k-250 purchase price. Since that does seem possible, thats a 40k hit without repairs. I can only do so many of these deals…..I want to do a lot…..

How do I finance or purchase other wise with keeping some skin!???

P.S I ordered your REO 101 package yesterday…Im sure there will be some good stuff in there!

Answer:

First, thanks for the ordering course.

Now, on the stuff I buy to keep – my goal is always to refi and get 100% of my money out of the property and still have at least $100 of monthly “real net profit” (that means after ALL the expenses- PITI- vacancy & credit loss, maintenance & 10% management.) So I try to buy at 50% to 60 % of ARV (after repair value or fix-up value) This is does not happen everyday, but those type of buys must make up at least 50% of my purchases. Now keep in mind that those are fixers where I’m forecasting spending 10% to 20% of the ARV on buying & repair costs as well as 10% to 20% on holding and selling costs. Keep in mind that since I don’t read minds or crystal balls, I don’t know when the market will change so…

When I buy, the property must jump through 2 hurdles: buy & sell and buy & hold.

Many times I’m purchasing properties where the repairs or other costs are less than my worst case scenario and that is typically reflected in a higher purchase price or percentage of purchase price to ARV, such as paying 70% of ARV.

OK, keeping in mind that the real estate market can change at any one moment, you must plan your attack with several acquisition strategies to assure your desired outcome. You MUST have more than just one method of catching the prey, especially if your long-term goal is to “hold it,” until it gets fat and juicy, while eating the eggs it produces periodically, and that is as good an analogy as possible – the chicken!

Even if you are flush with cash, if you believe and are banking on benefiting from appreciation, financing will be both your salvation and your weakness. Part of your daily tasks should equally include both the pursuit of leverage and new inventory, for you cannot continue to grow without both.

Do not limit your thinking nor listen to your well-informed logical thought process when it comes to your acquisitions of both of these needed components because the secret to acquire both to fill your coffers will come from consistent, relentless and unrelenting pursuit of both simultaneously, regardless of your own thinking (past, present or future continued imagined results). Almost daily you will have to wipe your opinionated-mind clean of your own “bull shit” thoughts and perceived conclusions and re-fix your focus on your deliberate chosen actions.

Financing is available from one of several sources

1- your cash stores

2- conventional lenders (FNMA up to 10, but really 4 to 5 properties)

3- local commercial banks – 5 to 10 (but really limited only by your finances and relationships)

4- hard money- same as #3

5- true investors, as in older real estate people that have been in and understand the business and now just want to get checks instead of managing properties (they are everywhere) – search in real estate offices; start with agents and their clients, referrals. Also, ads in a large newspaper like the LA Times- although these folks are typically looking for short term type investments; it’s all about returns.

6- Other retirees looking for better returns than the bank can provide- there are thousands- try to stay local when looking for these folks. People that prepare tax returns such as CPA’s or enrolled agents are a great source for people that earn good wages and need to find investments to give them either tax shelter or additional income to off-set their increasing tax liability.

7- Other investors like yourself looking to partner up with someone who has any of the components they perceive (or have actually identified) as missing from their own tool box needed to do this business. Local investor clubs are a very good source for these folks.

8- Check out the Homepath financing available to investors on FNMA Homepath approved properties. You can get up to 10 and the financing is superior to anything on the market. You may be paying a higher price for the properties, but when you add in the financing component it may make mucho sense. I personally am trying to buy 10. They identify several approved lenders to work with on their site. Make sure to confirm they have closed prior deals and are presently active doing these type loans with FNMA.

These are just a few tips to sort of jar your own mind and get you to start thinking in a different direction instead of just hard money for long-term financing.